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#1 Twocubdad

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 11:17 AM

In another thread someone wrote that their Scoutmaster, "contends that since he has been to Woodbadge he is qualified for any position. I've asked him to get a letter from the Council stating that all of the Training Requirements for him have been waived so that we can become a Quality Unit." While I don't buy the "trained for ANY position" arguement, it raises an interesting question. Does more advanced training certify you for lower-level courses? If not, why not? Two situations: #1- Our council has offered BALOO training only one time since the course was implemented, so our Pack doesn't have any BALOO certified adults to lead overnighters. We do, however, have several Webelos Outdoor trained leaders. Do we meet the BALOO requirements? #2- Several years ago, our ADC was denied his Webelos Leader square knot because he had not taken Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. Yet he had taken the similar Boy Scout level course (whatever it was called then) AND was on the training staff teaching the Boy Scout course. Comments?
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#2 Bob White

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 12:47 PM

All good questions twocubdad, I feel I can answer this accurately because of my training background. I'd rather not go into detail on it but I'll say that I have worked on scout leader training on a national level and ask that you trust me from there. Adcanced training (Wood Badge) allows you to use the information you gain at basic and supplementaru training and put them to the optimal use through good leadership and management techniques. That is why the completetion of basic training in a scouting leadership role is a prerequisite for attending Wood Badge. Supplementary Training such as Baloo, Webelos Leader Outdoor Training, Pow Wow, Roundtable, Scout Leader Units of Training, each have a specific function with unique information and directed at specific goals. Completion or participation in the Basic training courses are not required for attending supplemental courses. Baloo and Webelos Leader Outdoor Training are not interchangeable. The reason is that Baloo has far more health and safety training and very little outdoor skill. Cub Family Camping should not include many of the elements used in Boy scout camping, and some of these elements are introduced in the WLOT. WLOT is similar in some aspects of the new Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Skills session of the Scoutmaster training continuum. However WLOT also includes instruction on how to teach the webols outdoor activity programs like readyman, geologist, naturalist etc. This program specific information is not covered in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. So a Webelos Leader would not get the cub program assistance needed. National has tested and produced a new WLOT syllabus that is due for release sonn. I do not have a specific date. It runs concurrent to the Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills program and shares some class time and activity time with the Boy scout leaders. Since WLOT is mostly skill training and BALOO is mostly administrative, one course does not replace the other. Basic Training now called Leader Specific Training is designed as a continuum, in that the training adjusts as you change in your scouting positions. A new Boy Scout fast Start has recently been released and a new Cub Scout Fast Start is due to be released very soon. It is a great tool for orienting new leaders but according to a presentation put on by the Director of Boy Scout Training Division, it is not required for earning your trained strip. Your trained leader strip is earned by attending New Leader Essentials, the Leader Specific training for your position in scouting, and in the case of scoutmasters The Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills program. Once you have taken NLE you are not required to take it again. When you take any new leadership role you would just need to take the Leader Speecific portion to retain your trained status (and IOLS if you are a SM or ASM) There is no moving up or down in adult scouting positions. So qualifying for one does not qualify you for another. Any movement within a program committee is lateral and does not require additional training. The same for moving between Scoutmaster and asst. Scoutmaster. Much of this information can be found in the Council and District Training Committee manual which your district training chairperson should have. I hope this addressed your questions. Bob White
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#3 Twocubdad

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 04:28 PM

Thanks for the good info, Bob. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but here are a few thoughts/observations from the trenches: 1) If BALOO is mostly administrative/health/safety and WLOT is mostly outdoor skills, how does WLOT train me to take my Webelos den camping? Since BALOO isn't a Webelos leader requirement, where do I get the health and saftey training? 2)WLOT and IOLS are being offered together next week by our council. If the courses are similar enough to be taught by the same team and at the same time and place, why can't the courses be combined or at least made reciprocal? Of course there are Webelos subjects that don't apply to Boy Scouts and vice versa, but the similarities strongly outweigh the differences. As a trainee, I would rather sit through an extra hour of training which doesn't apply to me rather than have to repeat another entire weekend of training a year from now. To put it another way, if I'm a Webelos II den leader, why would I want to take WLOT now, knowing that at crossover in February I'm going to need IOLS. It doesn't seem to be a good use of the volunteer's time. 3) Same point relating to Cub Scout position-specific courses. I've taken every course except Cubmaster. I also had the old Basic Cub Scout Leader Training. Except for Tiger Den Leader (which was my first position-specific course) the others repeated 85% of the same information. You said the courses are designed as a continuum, but I disagree. Each course is designed to accommodate a new volunteer at each position. Over the four courses, you get the same introductory-level information, but never the next level. As I said in a post a couple weeks ago, if I have to play the Pin-the-Badge-on-the-Cub-Scout-Uniform game again, I'll scream. My point is that National has created many distinctions among the courses with few differences. The training is very broad but also fairly shallow. The number of questions raised on this board by very good, and well-trained Scouters tells me there is a deficiency in the training. A solution? When Mr. Williams calls for my advice, here's what I tell him: Don't slice the training by position, rather organize the classes by experience and/or responsiblity. "Cub Scout Leader I" could be program basics and getting started as a Den Leader. "CSLII" is more indepth as to programming and working with boys, health and safety. "CSLIII" is more advanced, includes leadership skills, how to recruit leaders, dealing with Scout retention, working with the professionals, (many of the topics addressed on this board). In my experience, a brand-new Tiger Leader has much more in common with a new committee member than he or she does with a more experienced leader who is taking on Pack- or district-level responsibilities. When I became Committee Chairman, I took the Committee position-specific course. It was an absolute waste of my time. It would have been terrific as a basic course for a new Blue & Gold chairman, or Uniform closet coordinator. But as a Scouter with a couple years experience, I can't recall any new information. No specifics about the proper way to handle money, what records the committee needs to keep, etc. So where do I go to learn to be Committee Chairman?
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#4 Bob White

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 04:53 PM

Good questions again twocub dad. #1 most of WLOT is skill some is health and safety. #2 It is not one staff, it is two staffs that share a some program elements together. Not everything in IOLS is pertinent to webelos. So only the sections that are relative to both programs are shared. To have members of either program sit through classes or activities that they cannont use in there roles as leaders would be wasteful and boring. #3 The leader specific course has to assume a few things in order to make it work for tens of thousands. first it is not designed for someone to take all the courses iin a single year. The Tiger leader is unique in many aspects so it has its own course. Next year when that leader has a Wolf den things change in the program so the istruction changes. That means thge leader will not return for two years when they go to Webelos. Some things are repeated becuase they are the same and the leader has not heard them in two years. Other things are added such as the changes in advancement and again the leader does not return to basic for at least 18 months. Then they go to SM Leader specific, and entirely new set of info. Taken all the same year of course they will seem redundant. Taken over the period they are designed for they compliment each other. Each builds on past information and experiences. Why would a second year webelos leader take WLOT? I have to ask instead Why didn't the leader take it as a first year Webelos Leader when they needed it. Finally if your Pack Committee course didn't cover the items you mentioned then the instructor didn't follow the training syllabus, because that info was supposed to be covered. I know because I've taught it. I have been through at least 4 generations of leader training program since becomming a leader and although no single course or curriculum will fit 100% of the adults in our program, this is by far an improvement over the earlier versions. The quality of the training experience still relies heavily on the quality of the trainer. Keep asking questions its good to get some of these anxieties aired and hopefully understood. Bob
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#5 Twocubdad

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 10:22 PM

You hit the nail on the head when you said the quality of the training experience still relies heavily on the quality of the trainer. The woman teaching my Committee specific course was clueless. And you better believe I let the course director and training chairman know. Puffing a couse feedback sheet helps no one. I disagree with you to an extent that the courses are cumulative and build one upon the other. I think they are much geared toward the rookie Scouter who is taking each course as their first exposure to Scouting. Although I like the concept behind NLE -- Scouters of all levels getting the big picture of aims and methods -- it pushes too much of the program basics into the leader specific courses. Maybe the new Fast Start will address that and allow the position specific courses to be more, well, "position specific." One more observation -- why in the world aren't all leaders given -- or required to bring -- a copy of the Cub Scout Leader Book to training? Familiarizing leaders with the book and showing them where to go to find their own answers would be a tremendus benefit. Frankly, some of the courses I've had would have been time better spent sitting quitely reading the leader book.
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#6 Bob White

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 10:39 PM

Out of curiosity twocubdad, did the courses you attended use video tape, PowerPoint presentations, posters, handouts and resource books along with the live teacher? I have taught everything but Tiger leader specific so far and you sound like you went to a different set of classes. Bob
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#7 Twocubdad

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Posted 04 September 2002 - 10:48 PM

NLE included the video and Power Point. The Tiger specific used overheads. A big part of that course asked us to use the standard den meeting planner and plan a den meeting, using what we had learned. That was good. I actually used the plan from the course for one of my den meetings. Den Leader specific and Committee specific both gave us a wad of photocopies, which were never referenced during the class. I've got the folder from one of the classes right here -- it's not marked which class it was for. Most of it is copies out of the training manual (I have a copy of the book) or rehashed out of the Leader Book.
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