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#1 le Voyageur

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Posted 27 August 2002 - 08:48 AM

I'm getting the feeling that the District may "volunteer" me to run the new leader's Outdoor Essentials training coming up this fall. For those who has either been an instructor, or an instructee. So, to be prepare, if you would, please opine away on the following questions... What did you like, or not like about the course? What could of been better focused on? What could of been left out? What changes do you feel would of made your training, or course better for you? Thanks
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#2 le Voyageur

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Posted 27 August 2002 - 08:53 AM

Since I'm not smart enough to figure out how to work the edit function, let me rephrase the second paragraph. For those of you have been either an instructor, or an instructee need some insight to prepare ahead of time. If you would, please opine away on the following questions.... [a word to the wise: one should avoid English when studying French mixed with Ottawa]
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#3 Bob White

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Posted 27 August 2002 - 10:22 AM

The new Introduction to Outdoor Leader Training has more hands on time than the outdoor training program it replaces. You spend about 90 minutes on each outdoor skill learning it up to the 1st Class level. To allow for more time for the other skills, cooking is done as a demo for the participants and all meals are prepared by staff. The one exception is a foiled dinner where the participants fix there own. (Be mindful of proper sanitation practices to model.) You need to keep things on schedule if you want to get everything done in time. It takes a pretty good size staff to put on a good show. We use over a dozen staffers. Have a good QM and know your costs. There are some unique supplies that every one needs like a walking staff, tote n chip and fire n chit cards, that is given them as they go through the events of the weekend. There are a number of preprint brochures and handouts you will need. Tell everyone to bring a handbook and a compass. We tell them to pack accordding to the personal equipment list in the Boy Scout Handbook. Hope this helps Bob white
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#4 buffalo2

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Posted 27 August 2002 - 11:08 AM

Bob has pretty well said it... I'm thinking of the field portion of the new version of Scoutmaster Fundamantals (now SM/ASM Leader Specific Training I think) If anyone is running this independently of these classroom portions I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts on that method. You might be wanting to consider your potential turnout; in our District we have many more participants in the Fall than in the Spring session. You'll get a pretty good feel for the # as your participants work through the classroom portions. Makes a difference to your staff, particularly when you're having to implement Plan B for heavy weather or whatever. The longer instruction periods are a Godsend, you can dig into your subject a bit and do a better job. A good point was made in limiting the instruction level to First Class, makes it easier to stick to the syllabus and cover the entire topic. We try to offer many sources for further independent study for those that are sincerely interested at a higher level (and mark them as future MB Counselors!) Lastly, we attempt to use senior Scouts from local Troops as instructors whenever possible. Some of our boys work pretty hard for the privelege of training adults, and a lot of value comes from your newer Scouters rubbing elbows with your best and brightest... Good Luck! and let us know how it goes
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#5 le Voyageur

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Posted 28 August 2002 - 03:11 PM

Thanks for the info all....got some insights now that I hadn't thought about. Time to find a syllabus at the Council and do some homework...thanks again
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#6 FScouter

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Posted 28 August 2002 - 06:56 PM

When I did this training, I would have liked to have seen more hands-on sessions. Give me knots, pioneering, fire lays, lighting of various stoves, knife and hatchet sharpening, camp gadgets, cooking, shelter construction, first aid. We got a lot of displays to look at, and a lot of talk, but not a lot to actually DO.
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#7 le Voyageur

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 06:35 AM

FScouter More hands on, hey! Question - for pioneering, if you were taking this course would you be interested in learning simple pulley/lever systems (z-drags, 3:1)to move small logs around? For fire building, would you have been interested in learning to build firelays that conserve wood, plus the use of flint and steel over matches? How about tracking, would that of been an interest??? For First Aid - cover the requirements for the lower ranks, but add in some WFR?? Include training like CSpine/Spine management, Airway management, etc. Would a session in wilderness risk management be of an interest, or is this getting to far ahead of the game??? Also, if you would, please feel free to add additional comments, thanks
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#8 OldGreyEagle

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 06:52 AM

I would much rather hear you talk about wilderness risk management and how to stay out of situations that require you to manage the severe trauma you listed. I think a session where you go over what you do to minimize risk on a high adventure trip would be quite valuable.
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#9 acco40

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 08:00 AM

It is my understanding that the Wood Badge for the 21st Century attempts to teach leadership skills, common skills necessary for committee members, den leaders, scoutmasters, etc. The skills many wish the course would teach sound like a litany of outdoor skills, not very relevant for a commissioner, committee chair, etc. What some of you would like, in my opinion, is a course like SM/SA Outdoor Fundamentals II; a "graduate" or second course to the last troika of the new SLF training . {This course doesn't exist to my knowledge. Just a suggestion on my part.}
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#10 FScouter

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 10:02 AM

Id like to see and build some of the projects in the pioneering merit badge book. Rope tackle would interest me. There is more than one way to lay a fire. What are the advantages and disadvantages? Whats the best way to get usable coals for cooking? Whats the best way to get a fire going with one match on a windy day? First class first aid is good, but wilderness first aid may be beyond the scope of the course. Tracking would be interesting. We may never actually track anything, but it would be fun to teach the boys how to find evidence of the presence of a wild creature. In the course I took, there were some leaders that were new to scouting, and new to the outdoors. Some would be hard pressed to erect a clothesline between two trees. Those leaders particularly need a hands-on experience.
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#11 ScouterPaul

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 10:55 AM

le Voyageur Congratulations!! I'm sure you will do a wonderful job. I wish I could be a participant. When I took Outdoor essentials there were six Scouts on staff. All of these boys were JLT staffers, several had been to Philmont for JLT training and one was on Philmont staff. These young men handled the ax yard and knots on their own and assisted in the other areas. My recomendation is to incorporate the youth in your area to help. As a new Boy Scout Leader (moved up from Cub Scouts) it was wonderful to see the "end result" of what Scouts is all about. Also I personally would love to have more WFR training. Paul
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#12 yaworski

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 11:53 AM

In the outdoor portion of our Boy Scout Leader Essentials (BSLE) course we covered tons of outdoor stuff. Fires: we had to do three fire lays and one fireplace. Light a fire with matches as well as flint and steel. Pioneering: As a troop we built a 20 foot bridge with ramps and a deck. The engineering committee planned the entire operation and the troop executed it. First aid: we covered tons of first aid which was put to use in the competitions. At the end of the whole thing, we had a competiton which included first aid, fire building, pioneering, knots, plant identification, and some other things that have faded from memory (there were seven stages in all). We had a fire building competiton earlier in the training and my patrol came in dead last but we won the competiton at the end (Ho-Rah!).
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#13 eisely

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 08:59 PM

Having served as an instructor twice now, I can tell you that you need to stay on schedule and keep it simple. You really don't have time to go much beyond the First Class stuff. We ran a very fast paced course and the participants really appreciated it. Do everything you can to maximize the hands on experience.
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#14 Bob White

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Posted 29 August 2002 - 09:08 PM

Careful with the level of skills you try to present lasvoyager. The goal of the course is to get these participants to the level of first class scouts in the areas of.. First Aid Woods Tools Compass Plant Identification Fire Building Cooking Health and Sanitation Camp set-up Packing a back pack Knots and lashing Most of these participants have no ex[erience or lots of experience doing it incorrectly. You will be challenged getting them to First Class. Save the fancier stuff for a 'Show and Do' event. Bob
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#15 Stan Riddle

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 07:35 AM

My two cents worth... Get with the others who will be instructing, and make sure you aren't repeating too much of the same stuff over and over. Also, if you are handing out instructional materials, don't duplicate ( no pun intended ) the same stuff. In the first few courses I taught, we didn't communicate enough, and all of us had copied much of the smae materials. I think we used about 10 acres worth of good timber to make our copies. We also wasted too much time repeating each other. I'm not faulting anyone. Many of us had served on the old courses, and the new syllabus was a change. Oh yea, syllabus's, or sylabi, or whatever you would call them. Some think that a syllabus is sacred, and thou shalt not alter it. I look at a course syllabus like a road map. It tells me how to get from points A to B. It doesn't tell me when I can stop, nor prohibit me from taking a detour once in awhile. Good luck in your course. I believe that the most effective way to help the most Scouts is to do your part in instructing leaders. You may teach 10 Scouts, but if you instruct and help make good leaders, you may reach hundreds of Scouts.
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#16 Bob White

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 07:47 AM

Stan, perhaps if you saw each training course as a puzzle piece. If you change the shape of the piece it will no longer fit to complete the big picture. If every district or council is changing the content of the training is it any wonder there are so many misconceptions as to what scouting is. Continuity is what makes it a program. Bob
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#17 le Voyageur

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 08:36 AM

Bob Gotta admit you're right about keeping it basic. Kinda thinking about setting it up as a very condensed first year camper program seen at summer camp using the sylabus as the primary focal point. If there's time left over, maybe cover Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Trek Leader, and Climb on Safety. The big unknown, as always, is the skill levels of one's staff...if they tackle a subject that is outside their experience, they'll only do a poor job of teaching that skill. The goal is to have both the staff, and the students comeing away from a training event feeling very positive about what they have done..it's gotta be a win win for everyone... Without a doubt,the information that has been posted is just great, it'll make the first staff meeting much more productive..many thanks all
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#18 eisely

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 12:09 PM

A further comment about the published syllabus. I found the portion of the syllabus for which I was responsible (map & compass and related skills) utterly lacking in detail as to what was to be covered and how to teach it. We have made lots of decisions about what skills to cover and what not to cover. We try to jam as much in as we can in the time allowed, but some lesser topics, such as measuring height and distance get short shrift. It is more important to teach the basics of map reading and compass use to help people find their way. There is also an issue regarding teaching the skill itself and teaching how to teach the skill. While our emphasis has been on teaching the skill, we also try to include suggestions on how to teach.
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#19 FScouter

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 12:15 PM

When I took the course, it was an overnighter, Friday night and all day Saturday. It that still the case?
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#20 Bob White

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Posted 30 August 2002 - 12:36 PM

eisely brings up a good point, if the leaders know the skill but do not know how to teach the skill it can be pretty pointless. We did two things to assist that. First we had every trainer take the Trainer Development BSA 500 course. Then we also drilled into the trainers to use proper instruction techniques for teaching adults. We then had a open discussion at the campfire about how children learn and discussed specific ways that these skills should be taught to scouts. That way it didn't cut into the program time during the day. And yes Fscouter it is still an overnighter. Some go Friday to late Saturday but most the trainers I have tlked to across the country go from early Saturday to late afternoon on Sunday. Bob White
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