Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Eagle Mentor Pin on Scout Uniform


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#21 ideadoc

ideadoc

    Member

  • Members
  • 35 posts

Posted 22 March 2011 - 08:30 PM

I wear my mentor pin on my neckerchief - right under the slide. I keep meaning to make a neckerchief slide that has a place for mentor or dad pins...need to get around to that someday. Shows off the pin very nicely and, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't violate the insignia guide.
  • 0

#22 Eagle707

Eagle707

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:44 PM

Desertrat is correct. However, I want to build off one of his points: isn't circumventing the insignia guide part of that "little pride in the uniform" that he was lamenting? I'm not a uniform policeman, nor do I aspire to be. However, I take care to wear my uniform correctly when representing my district. We are supposed to set examples for Scouts to emulate (and we should reward them through uniform inspections). How do we explain to Scouts that a certain pin carries enough weight to make you an exception to the rules? Besides, we already have mentor recognition on our uniforms: those round patches that say things like "Scoutmaster," "Coach," and "Advisor."
  • 0

#23 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2248 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 12:03 AM

Eagle707, thanks, that's something to mull over. To borrow from another uniform thread: there was a time in scouting when full uniforms were the norm, and the only guidance most scouts and parents had was the scout handbook...very basic stuff. And the example set by leaders. Uniform police? I never saw any until I was an adult scouter in the '80s. Some folks, particularly older scouters, had some very eccentric touches to uniforming, but no one said anything--I think we saw it an individual flair, or their right as an old timer. Here's the irony: the more rules there are, the less any are followed. That's the status quo as I see it. There are basic principles that should be followed--but there is a line where it's just nit picking and overkill and food/drink for uniform police. I put the prohibition against mentor pins in the latter category. Every one knows if something is really out of whack--like sewing your OA flap on the wrong side. But a mentor pin? Good grief, only a few souls know what the IG says, and even fewer care. The key question is "will it bring discredit?" If the answer is no, they I say do it. I don't view the BSA insignia guide as holy writ. The key word is "guide." So where is the line? Who decides? You and me and any other adult who volunteers their time to the BSA. We are all quite capable of knowing what's important and what's not. I'm also a big proponent of freedom.
  • 0

#24 Eagle92

Eagle92

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 7632 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 08:27 AM

there was a time in scouting when full uniforms were the norm, and the only guidance most scouts and parents had was the scout handbook...very basic stuff. I agree it was basic, and I never saw an IG until I helped the scout shop move to a new location. BUT I can tell you that even with the information still on the inside back covers, people STILL do not look at the information.
  • 0

#25 skeptic

skeptic

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1924 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 10:20 AM

Yep; have had parents tell me they cannot find any of the info. Tell them to look in the handbook, on the inside covers, and they act as if that is not feasible. Maybe they are visually regressed, or cannot read. Makes you want to scream sometimes.
  • 0

#26 acco40

acco40

    Super Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3826 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 09:00 PM

Folks, please do not describe those that strive to follow proper uniforming in a demeaning manner. I will wear mine with pride, because it is insane not to. So, by choosing to follow proper uniforming I'm regarded as insane? The scout uniform is bought and worn by volunteers. So is the military and has been for close to 40 years. In closing, a few thoughts about "uniform police." I have found that uniform zealots, both military and BSA, tend to lose sight of what the uniform is actually designed to achieve. This is a common thread in this forum. Someone asks the "correct" way to do something, someone replies with the correct answer and then they are pilloried for their response. For myself, I would never dream of coming up to a Scouter and telling him that his mentor pin does not belong on his or her uniform. But, if asked, I would state that no, the BSA has stated that mentor pins are for civilian wear. By stating such, why do folk imply that we are "uniform police" or somehow think we feel that uniforming is the most important thing in Scouting. Personally, I think it is just rationalization by folks who know they are doing something they are not supposed to do. Reminds of the joke about the guy who asks a lady if she would ... Well, we've already established that, he says. Now we are just negotiating price. Is it less wrong to steal one cent than to steal millions of dollars? While uniforming is a method, it does not automatically justify blindly following a non-binding administrative pamphlet "just because it says so and that's that." It certainly does not imply not following it. Proper uniforming does not happen by thumping people over the head with the regulation. We are sweating wearing an Eagle Mentor Pin. Who is thumping? Who is sweating? Who is picking nits? The question was asked, a proper reply was given. Nothing more, nothing less. At summer camp, the camp staff asks that the uniform (field) be worn to dinner. Some of the boys grumble about it - some of the adults too. As the Scoutmaster, the SPL or I reminded them of this fact before we headed out. Did we "require" it? No. We signed up to do the flag ceremony in the next few days. I asked the boys to practice (I usually had the younger boys do this to fulfill requirements). As a troop that had chosen to wear a neckerchief, I asked the flag ceremony team to be properly uniformed. A few more grumbles - I can't find mine some would state. Borrow one or if need be you can use mine, I'd offer. Well, they would quickly find their own after that. It just so happened, the evening before we were scheduled, another troop's team performed the ceremony with their uniform shirts and swim trunks! I didn't say anything but when we got back to our base camp later that evening I asked the boys what they thought of the flag ceremony. They were embararssed for that troop. I asked why and it was because of their appearance they stated. I had no uniform issues the following evening!(This message has been edited by acco40)
  • 0

#27 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2248 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 09:34 PM

Acco, while you obviously take a balanced approach to uniforming, please don't include yourself with the aforementioned zealots. Proper uniforming is a spectrum, not an either/or issue. To approach it from the stand point of all/nothing, do it 100 percent or you are a scofflaw, that's the rub. While the military is all volunteer, that's where the similarities with the BSA end, as far as uniforming. Military uniforming isn't a goal, a method, a desired outcome, whathaveyou. It's mandatory. Even then, there is a time and place for good judgment.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)
  • 0

#28 Twocubdad

Twocubdad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4462 posts

Posted 23 March 2011 - 09:57 PM

Ya know, Acco, even though we come to different judgements on the mentor pins, I pretty much agree with that last post. As I posted earlier, we're a full uniform troop. Your story about the flag ceremonies is pretty much an annual thing for us. Our guy are trained that a complete Scout uniform requires all six parts -- hat, necker, shirt, belt, pants and socks. Unlike your troop, at summer camp, you don't leave for dinner until you are in uniform. (And frankly, that's not so much about the uniform as it is about following rules and keeping up with your stuff.) But if you've got those six basic parts, we don't really worry too much about the detail. As it relates to things like patch position and what insignia to wear or not to wear, my approach is to let the boys know what is proper and let go from there. If a boy is especially proud of a patch he earned as a Cub or maybe he's wearing a mile swim patch as a temporary activity patch, good for him. At an appropriate time, I'll make sure he knows that the mile swim patch is intended for his swim trunks not his uniform, but if he leaves it the uniform, I really don't care. I have two brothers in the troop who both earned two levels of religious emblems as Cubs. They both wear two religious emblem knots on their uniforms. At different times, I've struck up conversations about the knots, usually starting with what they did to earn the awards and what a big deal it is. And I mention that instead of wearing two knots, they really should wear one with the two devices indicating the program in which the awards were earned. It was not big deal for either of us. A couple months later, the older brother came up and asked me to explain the devices again. Viola! Learning has occurred. Not long after the older brother showed up with a new uniform shirt with one knot and two devices. Of course the little brother inherited the old shirt, but I'm sure we'll cycle through eventually. I think that's the way it needs to work. We're here to teach boys to make ethical decisions. We teach them what is right and let them practice their decision making skills from there. Getting screamed at by someone pounding a knuckle on copy of the Insigina Guide doesn't allow room for ANY decision making, only compliance.
  • 0

#29 drhink

drhink

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:18 PM

Desertrat: Really? You honestly believe "the more rules there are, the less any are followed." The original poster asked if there was a "proper", and the first response was correct in saying "no". There are two ways people go against the IG standards: 1. things done incorrectly with the uniform because of not knowing the correct standard, and 2. things knowingly disregarded. The latter reason for deviating from the IG has absolutely nothing to do with how many "rules" there are. When I see scouters disregard something they KNOW is part of the uniform / IG policy, I perfectly understand when the scouts in that troop also disregard the uniform standard. Scouts pick up on even the smallest of things. Do you feel the same way about advancement standards? If a scout turns in a blue card to his SM after he's completed the MB but never got a leader's signature before starting on the badge, is that OK? Is it OK to modify a rank requirement "just a little bit"? Where do you draw the line versus what the national organization has defined as the standards? I hear it all the time: "We follow most of the BSA standards, except for a handful we don't agree with." I guess we need to bend the definitions of trustworthy, loyal and obedient; but what the heck, they still follow the remaining 75% of the Scout Law to the letter, right? I don't think it's nitpicking. There's an analogy we use in the software industry regarding even a small deviation from standards: Just a teaspoon of ['sewage'] in a barrel of wine taints the whole barrel. Either you follow the standards, or you don't. If you know the standards yet pick and choose what standards to follow or ignore, expect other scouts and scouters to do likewise, and don't complain when they deviate in a way that bothers you.
  • 0

#30 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2248 posts

Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:52 PM

Yes I really believe it, particularly as it applies to uniforms. I've seen work time and again. I don't buy the slippery slope theory, particularly when comparing uniform wear with advancement or with software design. Some rules are hard and fast, others are guidelines.
  • 0

#31 kbandit

kbandit

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 216 posts

Posted 22 June 2011 - 07:07 AM

I will continue to wear my two mom's pins one on each collar til I die. I am proud of the fact I have 2 sons who are Eagles. Uniform police here I am. LOL Come and try to take them off or give me a hard time about them. LOL
  • 0

#32 nolesrule

nolesrule

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 772 posts

Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:50 AM

My attitude on uniforming... I care about my correct uniforming. I don't care about your correct uniforming. I will give Insignia Guide answers when asked questions about uniforming, and will only point out uniforming issues to others when conducting a uniform inspection or if it's something really messed up, like getting sleeves or pockets reversed.
  • 0

#33 OwntheNight

OwntheNight

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 282 posts

Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:48 AM

Why is it the only ones that get bent out of shape about the uniform are other scouters? When I walk into a restaurant in uniform with some of our boys, nobody comes up and asks or tells me that I have a pin or other doohickey on my uniform that's not supposed to be there. They see the uniform as a representation of the Boy Scouts of America, they also look at the boys with more regard, instead of a bunch of kids that are going to reek havoc in their store for about an hour. The same goes for military uniforms. I don't know what every ribbon in the "fruit salad" means, but that soldier, or airmen, or sailor, or marine knows what it means to them. When I see a soldier in dress uniform, I'm not thinking about whether they have something on wrong, I see the uniform for what it's supposed to represent. Wear your mentor pin with pride if you choose too, you earned it.
  • 0

#34 OldGreyEagle

OldGreyEagle

    Super Moderator

  • Members
  • 0 posts

Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:27 AM

I hope the people who express that the "Uniform Police" can just come after them and have disregard for the Uniform Guide would never fail a scout for a Board of Review because their rank badge was not sewn on the uniform
  • 0

#35 Old_OX_Eagle83

Old_OX_Eagle83

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 514 posts

Posted 23 June 2011 - 03:18 PM

BDPT00 is correct. However, let me say that Id leave it right where the young man put it. Typically Im big on following uniform regs, but in this case, Id where it on my left pocket flap with pride. What I suggest is against policy, but I doubt anyone would ever say a word about it.
  • 0

#36 BDPT00

BDPT00

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 888 posts

Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:47 AM

** Then you're clearly not on my training staff or one of my commissioners. If you're in a position to represent the BSA to other Scouts/Scouters, you should be in proper uniform. I won't mess with you if you're not one of mine, but I'll correct your uniform if you're in my charge. BDPT00
  • 0

#37 Old_OX_Eagle83

Old_OX_Eagle83

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 514 posts

Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:03 AM

BDPT00 wrote: ** Then you're clearly not on my training staff or one of my commissioners. If you're in a position to represent the BSA to other Scouts/Scouters, you should be in proper uniform. I won't mess with you if you're not one of mine, but I'll correct your uniform if you're in my charge. BDPT00 BDPT00, just as clearly youre not on my staff, or one of the commissioners in my charge. If you were Id instruct you in the purpose of the program, and the importance of recognizing the accomplishments of the scout, and his scouter mentor. That simple mentor pin not only makes that scouter aware of the impact of this contributions, but also makes it more likely hell continue to contribute. Additionally, that simple pin will instill confidence in the units program, with youth, parents, and volunteers. There is even the added benefit of inspiring youth to greater accomplishments, both the young man who presented the pin, and those who would place another beside it! Mess with me, please, that gave me a good chuckle. Do us all a favor, get the starch out of your corset, and put your focus back on the program. Proper uniform wear. I was visiting with a unit not long ago when I witnessed what I consider proper uniform wear. The youth were working on the tracking merit badge in an adjacent wooded area, and I was speaking with the CC and SM in the parking lot. The scouts emerged from the woods, shirts half untucked, dirt liberally applied, headgear sweat soaked and askew, evidence of a recent visit to the brier patch in their socks, a half torn off patch visible on one scout, and one scout even using his uniform shirt tail to apply pressure to a cut. Now that is correct uniform wear, and what Norman Rockwell should have painted. The scouts where not ashamed, but proud, and we all soon shared the scouts smiles. (This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)
  • 0

#38 BDPT00

BDPT00

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 888 posts

Posted 24 June 2011 - 03:32 PM

Made me smile. No problem with the kids emerging from the woods. BDPT00
  • 0

#39 Let's Hike!

Let's Hike!

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:28 PM

I have read through everyone's comments today and I must admit I'm torn. As a former Marine I completely understand and respect the importance and value in doing everything possible to adhere to uniform regulations. Then on the other hand I find myself agreeing with Desertrat in believing that the mentor pin does absolutely nothing to discredit the uniform. It's a very small pin but carries quite a bit of meaning to its owner. My two cents for what its worth is that BSA should acknowledge the desire on behalf of the recipients of the pin and designate a spot on the uniform where it can be worn proudly. Let's not let this issue divide us because I think we can all agree that as leaders we have far too much to be working on for the good of these young men than to take issue with an Eagle mentor wearing his/her pin on their uniform. Happy Scouting to you all!
  • 0

#40 wannalancit

wannalancit

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:10 PM

Parent pins and mentor pins. If wearing it on your uniform makes you feel good please continue to do so. I challenge all that do this to take it one step further. In addition to your uniform wear it on your civilian cloths. Wear them on your blazers, shirt collars, blouses, ties, sweaters, and hats. Wear them to work and Church. Wear them to town and PTA meetings. Wear them when you go to vote. It is more important for us to show people outside of scouting how proud we are of our sons accomplishments (or our own accomplishment with the mentor pin), then it is showing people inside of scouting (they already know).
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


IPB Skin By Virteq