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A few individuals again abusing restricted items on eBay.


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#21 BadenP

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:29 PM

Odds are this seller is probably a past scout and knows how many scouts and scouters out there are willing to buy these products for whatever personal reasons to make a quick buck. Fact is that most National run scout stores it is extremely easy to go in and buy a Eagle badge or most any restricted item without ever being asked for paperwork. If you are an adult the store help figures you are authorized, or don't really care, that's the way they run the National store in my council. All the Eagle badges, Silver, Ranger, Gold awards I have purchased for my troop or crew over the years, and never once was asked for paperwork. The rules mean nothing if they are not being consistently enforced throughout the country. The reality is no one is abusing anything, it is the holes in the system. Added note, anyone can get WB beads, necker, and woggle from Gilwell Park without any documentation either by ordering online or visiting Gilwell in person. I have ordered replacements for myself and additional ones for scouter friends beading ceremonies.
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#22 packsaddle

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:37 AM

Regarding snobbery. I think I've seen this but since I don't 'get' many of the social signals that some of us are really sensitive to, I might just have missed it. I HAVE seen certain groups of scouters who seem to be very closely-knitted in their interactions and for this, woodbadge does come to mind. I just don't actually 'feel' any slight by it though. OMG, does that make ME a snob?! So I just invite myself into the group whenever I want. I just sort of bumble into it smiling and if they seem uncomfortable, I just ask them straight up and apologetically, "Am I intruding?" "Am I not supposed to be here?" They almost never say 'yes'. So usually at that point I'm 'in'. Woohoo! Being a social clutz can actually be a lot of fun at times! It also helps to have layer of water-resistant feathers. ;) Oh...a horse is a horse, of course, of course....
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#23 desertrat77

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:27 AM

Packsaddle, gosh, golly, congratulations on your super mixing skills :)! I'm not unfamiliar with breaking the ice, social nuances, and building bonds. I'm at the point in my military career where I spend more time at conferences, luncheons, meetings, civic events, than I care to think about. Perhaps we should define terms. By snobbery, I don't mean folks enjoying their longstanding friendships, nor a simple lack of common courtesy. I'm talking about overt behavior, verbal and non-verbal, where the message is clear--you don't belong ("why yes, you are intruding!") and/or you aren't qualified to speak. When you introduce yourself to another scouter for the first time, and he scowls and scans your uniform instead of looking you in the eye, and then walks away in a huff, that's the first level of snobbery. I'm getting ready to move again...will be my four council in five years. My current district has probably been the most friendly to new folks.
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#24 Beavah

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:58 AM

Yah, what KC9DDI and shortridge said, eh? The "rule" about not selling restricted items is an internal rule for BSA employees. One honored as much in the breach as in the observance, to quote the old bard. A rule for employees has no bearing on anyone else. The fellow at McDonalds might not be permitted to put too much ketchup on a burger, but once he sells me the burger I'm free to add as much ketchup as I like. Similarly, anything in the BSA's Rules and Regulations really only applies to members of the corporation and to a lesser extent to general members, and only in a very limited context where it doesn't cross over into a person's general rights to liberty. The BSA can attempt to "recall" badges, uniforms, or other branded items that they have sold to people all the livelong day. If they actually try to take them back we call that "theft" in the real world, and punish said BSA official with jail time. The BSA can no more "recall" the items that it has sold than Levi Strauss can "recall" the jeans it has sold you. As to copyright, the original Eagle Scout badge and medal were made available in 1912, and therefore copyright expired in 1982. Beavah
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#25 Papadaddy

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:01 PM

Actually the BSA insignia are registered trademarks. Not sure how that differs from copyright, but I'll leave that up to the legal beagles, er..beavers. Last Christmas, a friend gave me a set of the centennial rank badges that he had purchased on Ebay, because he thought I would like them as a collector. If the BSA wants them back, they can pry them from my cold, dead, fingers...or buy them for a buck at the yard sale after I die.
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#26 Oak Tree

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:20 PM

The rule that infoscouter quotes says that the badges can only be "used by members who qualify". So I do get why it would be unethical to try to pass yourself off as an Eagle when you aren't one, or to wear badges that you aren't entitled to. What I don't get is why it would be unethical for patch traders to buy and sell patches. So if I have a bunch of patches and wanted to sell them, why would that be a problem? (Not that I have ever tried selling anything on eBay, but I do have a fair collection of patches.)
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#27 ScoutBox

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:13 PM

It's call Free Enterprise. People can sell anything not deemed illegal. BSA Patches are legally purchased and can be sold. Get used to it. Brother I went to Ranger School. and you can find Ranger emblems all over the Net for sell. along with all sorts of Police, FBI etc.. etc.. My suggestion for you is to not buy from the guy.. enough people stop buying then he will be forced to stop buying and selling himself. Supply and Demand..
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#28 Stosh

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:33 PM

Of course every scout that trades patches falls into this problem. OA patches for non-OA members? OA patches being sold to someone not a member of that particular chapter? The list goes on and on and yet... the list goes on and on. Not much anyone can do about it. Non-BSA or former BSA collectors are around and there are those who are willing to sell. If BSA had a legal department large enough to handle the problem, BSA would financially collapse. Stosh
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#29 Tokala

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:19 PM

The most basic part of patches is to make money. Whether it's to add to Council, National, or personal coffers. That's why we have Council strips for FOS, trainign scholarships, wood badge, Jamboree, etc. It's a simple, effective way to raise cash! I know 2-3 Scout shops that carry Silver Antelope and Silver Buffalo knots. Bet i could walk in one and buy one :)
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#30 packsaddle

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:43 PM

Let's make an analogy to rhinoceros horns or tiger testicles. They're illegal to harvest and sell. The price on the black market (eBay) is really high as a result. Until Viagra came along, essentially displacing any need for rhinoceros horn, I advocated using protein synthesis technologies to produce synthetic rhinoceros horn from, say, dead fish. Then flood the market with a product that is just as good, indistinguishable from the real thing, and the price will tank. Then the risk of getting the real thing will outweigh the potential benefit. Solution: make enough fake badges so that the entire world is awash in them. OR...as already suggested, don't buy them. Thing is, this guy is not doing this because it isn't effective. He's doing it because someone, somewhere, is willing to pay. THAT is the problem. P.S. I started to use an illegal drug analogy but I thought scout patches would compare better to wildlife body parts than to something like heroin or crystalmeth.
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#31 KC9DDI

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:46 PM

Packsaddle - You have my nomination for "Analogy of the Century." Scouting patches are to tiger testicles as viagra is to ....?
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#32 ScoutBox

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:53 PM

ditto.. Above^^^^ I have a new scouter in my Troop, and he just came back from California, and Oklahoma. He visited two of his old councils. and brought me back a load of OA flaps, and CSPs. He told me that one could buy any council strip in the scout shops now days. He was unhappy because that takes away from the boys who go to camporees, and Jambos and trade. His thought was Why trade when you could just buy them off the shelf. He was remembering when he was a scout and trading at events like Jambo.. Makes since, but it still doesn't change the fact of Free Enterprise. Also I have found that my Scout shop doesn't sell any patches from other COuncils. maybe it's due to where we are. outside the loop to say. Another thing I saw was that Scout Shops usually don't sell patches that are special to other councils or districts. example, and special Flap. or course CSP, but just the standard issue stuff.
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#33 Eagle92

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:12 PM

All I can tell you is based upon my experience working for a national scout shop way back when. 1) restricted items were just that, RESTRICTED. You had to show some type of evidence saying you got that award. Certificate, pocket cert. uniform with the item on it (this was pre-EBAY) pictures from the event getting the award, etc. No evidence, then you either A) had to wait until we got verification depending upon what item it is, i.e. calling NESA for Eagle verification, the national division handling awards, local council, etc. or B) not get the award. National scout shops were required to keep a specific amount of inventory based upon sales if memory serves. And we had to keep a full set of knots in the drawers behind the counters. I think at a minimum, we had to have 3 of each knot, with some having higher minimums, i.e. youth religious knot. I know of only one person to buy a restricted item without evidence he got it, besides leaders buying for Scouts for presentation, and that was me buying a Heroism Award knot for a friend who did earn it as a birthday gift. He was a fellow summer camp staffer, and needed some knots for his second shirt. His knots were identical to mine, except the Heroism one. And more than likely the CD called in advance about it since we talked about it and the asst. manager knew who I was talking about having the award, and what I planned on doing. 2) SEs had influence on what could be sold and could not be sold. SE could state if restricted OA items could be sold or not. At my shop, restricted OA items like the sashes, lodge flaps, Vigil pins, ceremonies, etc, were only available through the local lodge. But items like the OA History, OA dangle, necker, etc were available. CSPs may or may not have been available. Again SEs when I worked could say that the council would only be availble within council territory.
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#34 Crew21_Adv

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:58 AM

Fellow Scouters and Patch Traders, Greetings! I always thought of these guys that sold multiple patches in Lots on Ebay as working in the manufacturing embroidery business or factory, rather than them being actual Scouters. Kinda like "A few fell off the back of the truck", if ya know what I mean. They count them as mistakes or slight defects when they come off the loom, and a few extra errors fall off into a cardboard box to take home (and ebay) rather than going to the shredder or incinerator. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv
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#35 andysmom

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:31 PM

The way I see it is if someone is selling a huge quantity of restricted items then yes, I would think there is something shady going on and "honest folk" might want to avoid this seller. If, however, I put on eBay a couple of the 2010 cub rank patches that got put back into my advancement box for whatever reason(a boy earned it but never showed up to get it, miscount during purchasing, etc)why is that a problem. I am talking 1 or 2 patches here. It is a way of building up the pack's account and clearing out stuff that we won't use and maybe someone else can (collection, replacement, whatever). If someone is purchasing patches, the Centennial Eagle patch for example, to wear when they didn't earn it, then I feel sorry for them.
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#36 Scouter.

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

Having seen this post and knowing I was going to our local Scout Shop (Nationally run) ...I looked at ScoutStuff.org to see what items were restricted. With that info...I headed over to the Scout Shop to get what I needed...+ to see if they would sell a restricted item to me. Yes with no problem at all. I picked up a "International Representative" patch. They did ask me if I was one (no) and said I could not wear (I said I don't plan on it.) That said.... For $3.19 I purchased that patch. eBay is selling them for anywhere from about $30 - $90 So...did I do anything dishonest by requesting to buy it, admitting that is not my Council Position, and stating that I do not plan to wear it....? If I were to decide to sell that on eBay and BSA National sold it to be... ...where is the issue? Over the years I have acquired a variety of not easily acquired (and restricted items (via eBay and trading). If I decide to thin out my collection (or accumulation) am I breaking some law? It appears this is a touch subject, but if I can buy it, why can't I sell it? Confused as to what the big deal is.
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#37 ScoutBox

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

I've now earned the International KNot, and asked my Scout Shop if I could order some. I was told they didn't carry them, and I'd have to go directly through my Council Office who would make the order for me. But they cost 10. bucks each.. WOW! Same with a new WB Necker or Beads.. I guess my council is sticking by the rules.. :)
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#38 Frank17

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:54 PM

Blame the scout shops, not the ebay sellers. The "restriction" is based on the sale of original items from the scout shops / scoutstuff.org. It is not based on secondary sales after the item has already been purchased from the BSA stores. The ebay sellers have a legal AND moral right to sell items; after all, collecting / trading / selling scout memorabelia has been going on since scouting started. Now wearing scouting items on a uniform is different; if worn on a uniform, the implication is that they were earned by the wearer, and not just purchased. In that case, the wrong is done by the purchaser / wearer. But as a collector and scouter who has used ebay extensively, I see no issue with selling resticted, rare, or personal scouting items on the site, as long as they are not counterfeits (which happens also).
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#39 BadenP

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:10 PM

Even if someone is wearing a uniform with badges they never earned, who is going to question/challenge them? or really even care?
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#40 Eagle92

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

Scouter. Please tell me you are joking. My old boss would have been p!$$3^ off at any one of us who would have sold stuff. Heck I got an attaboy for NOT selling some stuff off the shelves to 3 young ladies trying to play dress up for Mardi Gras. How did I know what they planned on doing? A) I knew the sorority they were in was planning a party as it was at my school, and B) heard them make references to the date of the party while in the shop. I asked htem for their membership cards, which they didn't have.
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