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A few individuals again abusing restricted items on eBay.


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#1 skeptic

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

This individual is again offering restricted items, specifically the Centennial Eagle patch, for sale at obscene profits. Two questions arise again: how does he obtain so many? And why will BSA or eBay not do something about it? To me it is simply wrong, especially from an individual who trumpets his being an Eagle. I realize there are some who apparently see nothing wrong with this; but I truly do not see how it is not illegal, since ranks require paperwork. He also is still offering a few other items from the actual Centennial which were supposedly restricted as well. http://stores.ebay.c...ew-Deals?_rdc=1 There is at least one other seller, but he is not listing quantities available.
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#2 packsaddle

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:13 AM

What law is he breaking? Seems to me this is an example of the American economic system working the way it should. And if he really IS making a profit, someone is agreeing with him.
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#3 SR540Beaver

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:23 AM

"What law is he breaking?" Trustworthy That being said, I walked into our national run Scout shop a month or so back and found Brotherhood and Vigil sashes for sale on the shelf as well as copies of all the ceremonies. Anyone could walk up and buy these safeguared materials. I was there to get a Chapter Adviser patch for my uniform. Know what, the patch was held in a drawer behind the counter so people couldn't just pick them up in the store and purchase them. Do what? I asked the clerk if they were aware that the items on the shelf were safeguarded materials and her response was, "yeah, we've had other people tell us that before". I talked ot the Lodge Adviser wh otold me he was aware and when he had talked to the SE about iit, his only response was that the shop was run by national and there was nothing they could do about it. I emailed Natoopnal supply and never got a response. So, if national can sell safeguared items on their store shelves with no questions asked, I'm guessing "trustworthy" doesn't apply to Scout(er)s selling Eagle patches on eBay.
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#4 studentscout

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:26 AM

Skeptic was using the term 'illegal' so I was thinking more in terms of 'legality' rather than 'the right thing to do'. OK, so aside from the scout oath or law, or for that matter the golden rule (none of these, as far as I can discern are often applied in business), what law has been broken? Actually, please explain the application of 'Trustworthy' in this instance for that matter. You don't KNOW that persons purchasing the item are NOT 'qualified' to own the patch. Any opinion on this is just supposition. I'm just trying to play 'you-know-who's advocate.(This message has been edited by studentscout)
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#5 5yearscouter

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

While the Eagle badge seems like it shouldn't happen, it most likely is bought "legitimately." As in the Eagle goes into the scout shop with his proof of eagle pocket card, buys a "replacement" eagle patch for his uniform and then sells it to make extra $. It's an interesting income maker. As for restricted 2010 things, My advancement chair who just quit handed over his awards pile. He bought too many 2010 bobcats, 2010 webelos badges and I have about a dozen of the 100 years of scouting patches with ribbons. I can't return them to the scout shop, and it's money I'd love to have available for my cubbies current awards this year. so if someone were to show an interest and scouts honor that their son earned them, I'd be glad to sell them off. Seems thrifty in that instance, don't you think?
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#6 Basementdweller

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

So how does an adult scouter get a philmont arrowhead patch, well ebay of course....Carrying 100 pound packs and the trails that go straight up the mountain, when asked if they came back to base camp over the tooth, no clue what I was talking about. Northern tier, Jamboree patchs, woodbadge beads, heck you can be a 4 beader for $29.99 with free shipping. There is a lot of Fake eagle scouts, Philmont crew members, woodbadgers and Jamboree participants...... Heck you can be a West knot wearer for $5.99. Many scouters judge you by what is on your shirt and around your neck.....It creates a black market in false reputation in the form of colored strips of cloth.
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#7 skeptic

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

In order to purchase the patch, you are supposed to have required paperwork. It is not intended as a replacement patch for past Eagles, but one recognizing earning the award in the centennial year. NO ONE should be legitimately buying a quantity of the item without such documentation, which is not likely for the amount being offered. Surely, most Scouters should see the violation of Scout Law, not only by the seller on eBay, but whomever is bending rules somewhere (maybe getting a portion of profit)to allow the sale in the first place. As far as actual legal issues, that is, state or federal laws of some type, a legal expert would have to review the specifics. But, if the items are obtained by subterfuge or not following established procedures for the purchase, and since it is a copyrighted item I believe, there could be actual legal implications. Whatever, obviously, there are individuals who feel stretching the Scout Law, and possibly other statutes is okay, as long as they are able to find a way around the safe guards. This individual tried two years ago to purchase large quantities of the centennial patches, cub and scout, as well as a few other "restricted" items from our local shop, as he lives in our council; but the store followed the "supposed" rules and refused to sell them. So, after making surly comments, he went elsewhere; and obviously has been able to supply himself. Maybe the WLAC National shop has the same lax controls noted by another poster. Maybe some are right, that National shops, and indirectly National, does not care as long as they get their money. Maybe the whole thing is too expensive to pursue legally, so they just let it slide, though one would think if the verification process was not followed, as intended, at least someone would lose a job. Just find it really disappointing that there are some who cannot see the hypocrisy in this. Yes, I too see hypocrisy in some of the larger National stances, and wish they would go to complete local control at the CO level. But that is not the same issue. Guess it is like the person that sees taking wrong change, in their favor, as okay, since it is the large corporate entity that loses in most cases (though shortages can cause loss of employment if common); while others of us always correct the situation, no matter what the amount. The world is becoming more and more grey in many areas of right and wrong. Just another old man complaining about the erosion of society and living in another era I guess. Honor is in the mind of the individual; some have higher expectations.(This message has been edited by skeptic)
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#8 Eagle92

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:11 PM

I admit I do have mixed emotions on this topic. On one hand, I have used Ebay to replace lost items, when you've moved around as much as I have and had stuff destroyed from a hurricane you need replacements for your memories. I've gotten a replacement BA22 patch, some of my old lodge's OA flaps that I collect still, etc. Heck I even got one of my lodge's mistake patches, i.e. the company seriously screwed up the patch, was sent back and was supposed tobe destroyed, only to find out the company was using them as samples (luckily we caught it in time and those patches are extremely rare as the ones we bought back were destroyed). But I do have a problem buying things they have not earned.
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#9 frank10

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:55 PM

I'd say I'm more amused than outraged. Why exactly would some one want to buy an eagle badge even if it were on the clearance rack? What are you going to do with it? Adults can't wear them and how many youth members who are not eagle even want to be e=seen in uniform in the first place. May be some are buying them to complete a collection (think of it as a private museum?). Or maybe an investment so in another 100 years then can resell it? It's not like they let you jump line a the hottest night clubs. "Sorry sir, your not on the list... Oh wait, I didn't see your eagle badge and your beads, come right in and bring your friends, we reserved the VIP room for you".
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#10 Basementdweller

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:42 PM

wingnut you have never been a victim of roundtable or camp adult snobbery. oh you don't have your beads, oh your only a two beader, oh you were only a life scout , on and on and on. We had a fellow on this board who wanted to finish his eagle project as an adult because as a teen he was too busy chasing girls or it became uncool. see this thread http://www.scouter.c...threadID=322817 I bet this fellow went to the scout shop and bought the knot and got the patch on ebay...Just as that adult scouter regaled the cub scout boys with tails of his phimont lies. Interestingly that fellow also tried to order woodbadge beads from gilwell.....Makes ya wonder (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)
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#11 Beavah

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

Whatever, obviously, there are individuals who feel stretching the Scout Law, and possibly other statutes is okay Yah, I'm not sure the Scout Law qualifies as a statute, eh? ;) Leastways, I seem to remember somethin' from Citizenship in the Nation MB. If yeh purchase a badge or item of clothing or are given it as an award, it's yours. Your property. You have every right to sell it if you like. Yeh might fault some scout shop for selling 'em, but once they do, it's done and over with. And honestly, most of us I reckon are perfectly content with some fellow buying a few badges he doesn't deserve and thereby contributing to the cause, in exchange for not having to deal with a whole mess of paperwork for some poor advancement chair who just wants to be able to pick up the boys' awards before tonight's Court of Honor. Lighten up, Francis. Beavah
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#12 fred8033

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

basementdweller wrote: "wingnut you have never been a victim of roundtable or camp adult snobbery." LOL. Been there ... way too many times.
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#13 Eamonn

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:36 PM

The family of HWMBO were one of the families that played a big part in settling the little town near where we now live. Take a drive through town and you will pass the public park that is named for her family, pass the school that was also named for her family and you can drive down a avenue that also bears her family name. One of her Grand Aunts died, maybe it was a great Grand Aunt. She was almost 100 years old and had lived in the house where she died since she was left it by her parents, who got it from their parents. Everything in the house was old. There was an auction. Some paintings of the family came up for bid. They went for more than I was willing to spend. HWMBO was very upset that some stranger bought the paintings. Her feeling was that they were family paintings and they should have remained in the family. I'm not sure who bought them, why the person wanted them? But while I'm not brave enough to say it out loud I was kinda happy that he did. The idea of having some stoic gent who looked like he might have been a constipated member of the clergy looking down from my walls at me for a very long time, didn't fill me with joy. If she hadn't bought a very ugly looking blanket type box and a big old clock, she could have bought the paintings. Isn't this very much like these patches? The guy who is selling them might not see them as anything other than merchandise, something that has no real meaning other than that it might make him a dollar or two. At the sale I went to with HWMBO the family bible was also sold to a stranger. What he is going to do with it or why he wanted it? I have no idea. But he was willing to bid more than anyone else so he now owns it. God Bless Him. Ea.
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#14 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:04 PM

Illegal? Trustworthy? What makes one think that the person selling the BSA restricted item is or ever was a Scout? Once again we have a few that jump to conclusions. Maybe mom and dad are cleaning out their son's room and instead of just throwing it away, sell stuff on E-Bay. Or sell it to some unknown person at an auction or antique dealer in a whole house full of stuff from someone's attic. There are clearing houses of BSA stuff on the internet that make it a business of buying and selling in BSA items, some restricted, some not. They have no idea where the items come from nor do they care where it goes. It's a business. One can tell that some of these people have no idea on the stuff they sell. I don't know how many JASM pins from the 20's and 30's get sold out there. Heck, they didn't have JASM's back then, it's a SPL pin! These people aren't abusing anything, they are only in the business of selling stuff that other people want in many cases. There is nothing on the books about someone selling a Congressional Medal of Honor on E-Bay. It is only illegal if one wears it. The same holds true for any military medal of any sort. Does anyone think anyone cares if the US government isn't going to regulate military medals, that someone's going to get bent out of shape because someone sold an old Eagle pin on E-Bay? Stosh
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#15 Oak Tree

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:27 PM

If the people obtained the items legally, why shouldn't they be able to sell them? Did they sign a document somewhere promising not to? Is there even a BSA rule against purchasing them on the open market? Is there a rule against selling them? I guess I don't see the problem.
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#16 skeptic

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:02 PM

Beavah; the possibly violated statute(s) relate to copyright and BSA's right to the items and their control. We "are not talking about old insignia here", rather current, restricted items somehow being obtained without the required paperwork being files. Big difference. And I am not a Francis, and you lost me on that inference. Must have something to do with someone that is too concerned about what some consider minor issues or things. " Is there a rule against selling them?" Actually there IS a rule about selling unauthorized items; that is why they have restrictive paperwork. "I guess I don't see the problem." And here lies the rub, so to speak. Too many people simply do not view pushing the bounds of honesty as important, as long as it does not hurt them personally in some manner. The Oath and Law are part of an "Honor Code". But, as noted earlier, "honor" is a personal thing. And, the seller in this actually brags about being an Eagle Scout. Now whether or not he is cannot be determined. But, "if" he is, then, in my personal opinion he is a very poor example. Maybe part of it is that he apparently lives within my area, and has tried to obtain things through our office. When not allowed to, in quantity (which is really the point, since it is to sell for HIS profit, not the BSA), he was rude to the staff. Whatever. Hopefully someone at National Supply will finally realize they have a problem somewhere, in that a few individuals seem able to obtain these types of things in a less than upfront manner. (This message has been edited by skeptic)
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#17 infoscouter

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:36 PM

The Insignia Guide includes this exerpt from the Rules and Regulations of the Boy scouts of America: "Protection and Use of Badges and Insignia Clause 8. All badges and insignia of the Boy Scouts of America shall be used exclusively by members of the Boy Scouts of America, registered and in good standing according to the records at the national office, who qualify in accordance with the provisions herein set forth or as may be authorized by the Executive Board from time to time and published in the official handbooks by the Corporation. Clause 9. All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representative." Theoretically, we pay for the privilege to wear the insignia, which the National Council can take back, if they feel there is cause to do so. In addition, I believe the BSA's Congressional Charter gives the corporation the sole rights to the insignia. T 36 United States Code Chapter 309.
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#18 KC9DDI

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:47 PM

I think that copyright law doesn't come in to play here - if it did, Half Price Books, Good Will and St. Vincent de Paul thrift stores would all need to stop selling second-hand books! Be careful what you wish for - do you really want some private corporation (like the BSA) to have the power to tell you what you may or may not legally do with the things you purchase? Would you want your automobile dealer to prohibit you from selling your car, or to prohibit you from having it serviced by a competitor? And have those ridiculous prohibitions legally enforceable? The BSA does not have any "right" to "control" my own personal property, even when that personal property is an item manufactured by the BSA.
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#19 shortridge

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:02 PM

No, copyright doesn't come into play here. If you sell a copyrighted item - a book or photograph or design or patch - you no longer have control over that item. What you control, as the copyright-holder, is the ability to produce more of those items. BSA can put whatever puffed-up language it wants in its bylaws, but none of it has any bearing on what we do with an item once we purchase it. That's our business. It might be different if the BSA was loaning out its badges under an agreement that they would be returned once people left the membership rolls, but that's clearly not the system in place here. As for the point of the OP, I think the practice is sleazy, but not worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. There are a whole lot of patch collectors who own items they never earned out there. Heck, we even have a forum here for them. I just don't see it as a big deal. P.S. "Lighten up, Francis" is a quote from Sgt. Hulka from the classic film "Stripes," a moving, powerful documentary about the modern military.(This message has been edited by shortridge)
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#20 desertrat77

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:05 PM

I don't lose one second of sleep worrying about this. There are folks that buy scout stuff, and folks that sell it. Matters not to me. Wearing unearned scouting regalia? That is such a sad commentary on the unauthorized wearer himself, it fails to raise any kind of reaction from me. Except pity. If someone really feels the need to wear unearned WB beads, or an Eagle knot, or a Philmont arrowhead, the wearer himself is both offender and victim. Basement, I too have been the recipient of world-class snobbery, primarily because I haven't been to WB. Secondarily, because I'm a military guy who moves alot and is sometimes viewed As Not One Of The Tried and True Oldtimers Of This Particular District. I used to let it bother me. Now I feel sad for the guy or gal trying to tweak my whiskers. If they feel the need to belittle me because they have seven beads and I have none, or because they have lived in the same place for awhile and I haven't, well, that's more about them than me. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)
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