An Interesting Weekend

[Eagle92]

Well my oldest is now a Boy Scout, I admit I cut him some slack and removed the CS insignia and sewed on the new unit numbers and Arrow of Light badge instead of making him do it himself. It was relaxing for me and it needed to be done ASAP, because of his new troop's Court of Honor tomorrow. Plus he helped clean gear from the camp out this weekend.

 

And trust me, I needed the relaxing. This weekend was the camp out in which the troop asked the pack to do the Cross Over on. So we made a pack camp out of the weekend. On the Pack side of things, what really hurt us was the weather. Cold and rainy was not fun for some of the Cubs, and all of the Cubs left after the Cross Over.

 

The Boy Scout side was Interesting. Boy Scouts started arriving after 5PM, but the SM with the trailer didn't arrive until around 7PM. That was because there was lighting issues on the trailer, and they tried to resolve them. So we had scouts waiting for tents to be put up and set up camp. Then they started up setting up in the same campsite. This got a little interesting when one of the Scouts tried to take over the two tables under the shelter. Had to remind him that the Cubs also needed table space and that both the troop and the pack needed to share the tables, especially since the Cub Families were cooking their own meals until dinner Saturday. Then we had scouts begging for left overs instead of helping their patrols get their camps set up. Lots of talking back form the scouts, even when I was willing to share the left overs with the entire patrol once they were finished setting up.

 

Chatting with some of the Boy Scouts I found out that the PLs and SPL are appointed by the SM, so that "everyone get's a chance." When I told him how it's suppose to be done, patrols electing their own PLs, troop electing the SPL, and then the SPL appoints positions like QM, Scribe etc, was told 'That's no how we do it.'

 

Now everyone, both the troop and pack, knew we would be doing some last minutes advancements the Webelos earned, and doing the AOL/Crossover ceremonies. That was what the troop wanted. But the pack wasn’t told the Troop would be doing their Court of Honor immediately after the Cross Over Ceremony. I am sure that whoever came up with that idea didn’t take into account A) the Boy Scout parents having to deal with a Cub Scout ceremony and b) Cub Scout parents and younger siblings, having to sit still longer than the planned ceremony. Luckily their COH lasted about 10 minutes. The drive to and from camp lasted longer than the COH for those parents who came to camp for the COH.

 

Now I mentioned that it was cold and raining. The pack decided to call it a day after the ceremony and everyone went home. And I knew some of the Boy Scout parents picked up their sons after the COH. I didn’t realized that the 2^nd leader for the troop also decided to leave as well until I started to pack up my tent to leave. I guess he thought the 3^rd leader was staying and it was OK, but didn’t tell anyone. Problem was 3^rd leader was on call, actually is always on call, and had a call out for his job and had to leave ASAP. So the troop ended up with 2 Scouts at camp, but only 1 leader. They couldn’t get in touch with mom, and SM didn’t want to leave until daylight due to the trailer’s lighting issues. So I ended up staying to make sure they had 2 deep. Thankfully the wife understood when I called her to explain the situation.

 

Had an interesting conversation about training in the district and his troop. He’s frustrated the district only offers IOLS only once a year. Says folks in the troop shouldn’t have to travel to other districts or councils to get training. Thankfully I was in a very good mood from seeing my old den Crossover because I was polite and tried to explain how things work, i.e it takes time an planning to do the classes, you have to coordinate with staff schedules, etc etc. Heck I even gave the example of when I did training in a metro size council: half the districts teamed up to do SM and ASM training in the fall, the other half did it in the spring. So our council is lucky to be doing IOLS 9 times a year. What I did not remind him is that I specifically planned IOLS around the troop’s schedule because I knew they needed it, especially with the old SM leaving, and only 1 adult from the troop registered for it because , “It’s too cold to camp [in January].â€Â

 

Then he said that there are other ways to get the training. First he tried to say that if the training chair would approve, he could do the training within the troop. To which I replied, we already had some issues with the district level trainings and quality, would a troop really have all the resources to put it on the training. (An aside, while some troops probably do have the resources, including staff, to do it, a troop with only 1 trained leader and other who are only helping to make sure the kids go camping, doesn’t.) Next he said that he ‘s involved with training with is company and that if the company doesn’t have the resources to do a training course, they go to outside agencies. Tried to tell him you are also paying for those outside agencies too, increasing the cost.

 

There were other issues why my son joined a different troop. But after this weekend, I am so glad he isn’t in this one. Just concerned about those Scouts from my old den who are joining this troop. Already had one of my old Cubs make the comment, :â€ÂIf I don’t’ like the troop, I’ll transfer to [another].â€Â

 

[resqman]

Wow! Just wow! So many issues with that troop. I agree that you should be happy your son choose a different troop.

 

You might just send a friendly reminder to all "your" cub scouts that there are lots of troops all with different cultures. Just because you join one, doesnt mean you have to stay with that one.

[fred johnson]

Gotta admit this is one of the reasons I hate the concept of choosing troops. The poster made the right choice to switch to a better troop. I'd rather spend my years building relationships and understandings with other adults and getting to know how each other work. Instead, we have a program where charter orgs have units that are split and left to struggle on their own.

 

Usually, it's the opposite of this situation. Usually, it's a struggling pack and a troop that has firmly entrenched practices and a good program. In this case, we have a healthy pack and a struggling troop. I'd rather see it as a continuous scouting unit with scouts in cubs, webelos, boy scouts and venturing. One unit. One committee. One charter org. One set of adults that know each other.

[RememberSchiff]

Glad you and your son are joining another troop. Hope your other Webs do the same.

 

Good planning and execution requires communication and coordination and then there is not being prepared and lack of patrol and leadership methods,

 

Random thoughts:

Often I think trailers cause more problems than they solve. Either way the equipment needs to arrive with the scouts or ahead of the scouts.

 

If there is an issue with trailer lights, that usually includes the BRAKE lights which makes it unsafe for day travel (particularly rainy day) too. Being old and grouchy, I would have been less Kind and said well you don't have two deep, unhitch and come back for your trailer later.

 

My $0.02

[Eagle92]

Fred,

 

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

 

Schiff,

 

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

 

Resqman,

 

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Ouch, not a good first impression. If my child were crossing over to the troop in question I would not have ran for the hills after this fiasco, but would have scheduled a sit down with Troop Leadership to make sure they were fully aware of the issues, and already had a plan in place to resolve them.

 

The only deal breaker I pulled from your post was SM appointed officers; This completely undermines the essential elements of the BSA Troop, and Patrol programs. Honestly, had I heard of this issue, I would have had a private word with the SM, verifying he appointed the officers, and this would be the plan going forward. If the group, I didn't say troop because it would not be one in this case, intended to keep having the SM appoint the SPL and PL's, I would have thanked him for the invitation, packed my den up, and took them home. Actual Boy Scout troops could be located after you got home.

[Tampa Turtle]

I don't think any of these were deal breakers but signs of, at best, a mediocre program. True all units have off nights but it is best to trust your instincts and move on as you did. Better then "making do" and then having your boy drop out because it is not challenging enough.

[fred johnson]

Fred,

 

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

 

Schiff,

 

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

 

Resqman,

 

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

Eagle92 - Agreed. But in a continuous unit, the leaders have a chance to feed knowledge and experience to each other, to learn and grow together.

[Eagle92]

Fred,

 

Believe it or not, there is a relationship, to a degree, with the troop. SM and one MC were the prior CMs of the pack. All the other leaders and committee members were DLs ot MCs of the pack. I think that's part of their problem: they are still acting as Cub Scout leaders. So these are folks we know. Good folks, but they don't understand BOY Scouts (all caps emphasis in this post ).

 

Schiff,

 

I hate to say it, I didn't think of unhitching the trailer. I was kinda stunned about the situation. And I SHOULD have remembered they could have done that since the SM forgot the awards for the COH and had to leave camp to pick them up at his house. That's when I found out the troop was having a COH, when I asked where the SM was and was told to pick up the awards.

 

Resqman,

 

I know one Scout is committed to that troop because his dad is an MC and his brother is either SPL or ASPL. And I know 1 parent has a history with the troop my son is joining: the Troop's CC was his SM and the current SM was his ASM back in the day. I think that the hope among many is he can turn it around. Some told me it takes 7 years and everyone to create a good troop, but 7 minutes and 1 person to destroy it.

Fred,

 

But if the leaders won't listen, you cannot do anything about it.

 

SM did not listen to one young man at his Eagle SM Conference as the Eagle candidate listed all of the troops problems and solutions to them.

 

SM, committee, and troop would not listen to me as I tried to offer help. I helped train the SM, and was told that I need to adapt with the times in regards to how meetings are done. When I tried to get them to send a rep to round tables to get all the vital information that they are complaining they never got, I'm told "we don't have time to attend all these meetings."

 

SM, committee, and parents would not listen to the former SM as he tried to offer suggestions to improve the troop. SM said, you got to change with the times. and It got so bad, one parent told him, "You didn't know what you were doing, and the troop is doing so much better now without you."

 

SM would not listen to his Unit Commissioner's advice. And this UC was extremely knowledgeable and active. He didn't visit his units once a year, he visited them monthly, and sometimes twice a month. UC tried everything to coach and mentor this SM and was ignored.

 

So this SM, who has only been involved in Boy Scouts for 2 years now, one of which as SM, thinks he knows better than folks who have been involved for years, in the case of the UC 40-50 years,

 

And Fred, please don't think I am trying to take out my frustration on you with this post. I am not. Rather the frustration is with the situation. The original SM spent YEARS getting the troop running by the boy methods where the boys could essentially do it on their own. I helped out some, and watched some of the first Scouts in the troop grow up to be fine young men. In fact the troop was why I wanted my son to join the pack we are in.

 

And to see the troop fall apart in less than a year is extremely frustrating.

[Eagle92]

Well here's an update. I talked to one of the parents who was our Cubmaster, I thought she was a MC but found out otherwise, and got some clarifications.

 

In regards to Patrol Leaders, The troop did elect PLs until this past month when they were suppose to be elections; According to her the SM said that it was getting to be cliquish with the same folks getting reelected everytime and everyone needed to get a chance in those positions. And of course his son was selected to be a PL since he just got Star and needs a POR.

 

Sorry no. If the PLs are doing a good job, they will keep getting elected. Should not be term limits. If the scouts in your patrol don't think you can be a good PL, they will not vote for you. You need to do some reflecting on why not.

 

In regards to not having a second leader, I found out he knew in advance that there would not be a second attending, and was planning on having the pack leaders staying Saturday nite with the troop. It would have been nice to have told the pack that. Normally it would not be an issue, but with the cold and rain, most Cub families are not prepared for it. We were lucky to have them stay as long as they did.

[Basementdweller]

Well here's an update. I talked to one of the parents who was our Cubmaster, I thought she was a MC but found out otherwise, and got some clarifications.

 

In regards to Patrol Leaders, The troop did elect PLs until this past month when they were suppose to be elections; According to her the SM said that it was getting to be cliquish with the same folks getting reelected everytime and everyone needed to get a chance in those positions. And of course his son was selected to be a PL since he just got Star and needs a POR.

 

Sorry no. If the PLs are doing a good job, they will keep getting elected. Should not be term limits. If the scouts in your patrol don't think you can be a good PL, they will not vote for you. You need to do some reflecting on why not.

 

In regards to not having a second leader, I found out he knew in advance that there would not be a second attending, and was planning on having the pack leaders staying Saturday nite with the troop. It would have been nice to have told the pack that. Normally it would not be an issue, but with the cold and rain, most Cub families are not prepared for it. We were lucky to have them stay as long as they did.

Someone needs to call the SM on his POR opps. His son might be a complete dork and never get elected....Unless he is 16 he has plenty of time.

[RememberSchiff]

Well here's an update. I talked to one of the parents who was our Cubmaster, I thought she was a MC but found out otherwise, and got some clarifications.

 

In regards to Patrol Leaders, The troop did elect PLs until this past month when they were suppose to be elections; According to her the SM said that it was getting to be cliquish with the same folks getting reelected everytime and everyone needed to get a chance in those positions. And of course his son was selected to be a PL since he just got Star and needs a POR.

 

Sorry no. If the PLs are doing a good job, they will keep getting elected. Should not be term limits. If the scouts in your patrol don't think you can be a good PL, they will not vote for you. You need to do some reflecting on why not.

 

In regards to not having a second leader, I found out he knew in advance that there would not be a second attending, and was planning on having the pack leaders staying Saturday nite with the troop. It would have been nice to have told the pack that. Normally it would not be an issue, but with the cold and rain, most Cub families are not prepared for it. We were lucky to have them stay as long as they did.

Wow, assuming beforehand that someone else without notification would cover your unit from an adult leadership standpoint...that SM needs a talking to. I hope the Troop Committee discusses this. How did he get sign-off for a Tour Permit?

[Eagle92]

Base,

 

The SM's son is a "spoiled brat and bullies everyone." Hence one of the reasons my son didn't join them. He was the scout I mentioned in a post a year ago who left his patrol during competitions at camporee, He was the one who wouldn't do what anyone told him to do, instead played with in the axe yard. From what I've been told by multiple sources, he is the troop troublemaker who was the reason some folks switched troops or left all together. An he's 13 and Star. How the heck he got that far so fast the way he acts, go figure.

 

If I could spin off this thread, I'd ask How can a patrol solve remove an appointed PL?

 

RS,

 

I think he was able to get a tour permit because he included the Pack on it as well as his unit. When I went to file a Pack permit, I was told it was already handled by the troop. Didn't think much of it at the time. Now I know why.

 

As for the committee, I don't even know if they have a clue.

[Stosh]

Over the past 35 years I have seen just about every one of the issues listed.... but not in just one troop all at the same time.

 

A lot of what is happening in the troop is exactly why I left a troop after struggling for 13 years trying to make improvements and getting nowhere. At the present time, the Troop Committee is trying to get rid of the SM, but because he's best buddies with the COR and IH, he isn't going anywhere and the families of the troop are weighing their options. Their only option is the troop I took over until I was removed for expecting too much boy-led leadership which is now headed in the same direction as the first unit.

 

It would seem, at least in this area, the trend for a lot of troops is to deteriorate into an adult-led program with a strong directive SM at the helm. And guess who are the first to complain about having to be trained? Kinda goes hand-in-hand.

 

Stosh

[moosetracker]

I don't think any of these were deal breakers but signs of, at best, a mediocre program. True all units have off nights but it is best to trust your instincts and move on as you did. Better then "making do" and then having your boy drop out because it is not challenging enough.

Woops posted in the wrong place.