New Scout is a Jehovah's Witness

[dfscott]

I just had a new scout join the troop this week. While one of the ASM's was discussing Scout Badge requirements with him, the subject of the Pledge of Allegiance came up, and he stated that he wasn't allowed to say the Pledge. I have heard that Jehovah's Witnesses are not supposed to be join Boy Scouts due to this fact, but I always assumed that it was on the JW side, not the BSA side.

 

Being in downtown Atlanta, our Troop is pretty liberal -- many of our boys have same-sex parents. So, my thoughts are: if his family doesn't have a problem with it, I don't either. However, I could see it making it difficult to live up to the Scout Oath and some other things that are flag-related, so when SMC time comes, it seems like I'd be walking a fine line. But he's very excited about joining, so I don't want to burst his bubble.

 

Anyone else ever run into this?

[jpstodwftexas]

Explain the rules of BSA if he can't follow the BSA rules then advice him to find another organization

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The BSA website says:

Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

While the promise, scout law, etc. says:

Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Scout Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.

 

It looks to me like he doesn't have to "take" the pledge, just repeat what it is. He could e.g. start out "the wording of the current US pledge of allegiance is blah blah blah" and he wouldn't be taking the pledge.

[skeptic]

Yep; I would review the material with him and act like I was in a classroom when that element comes up. "A Scout is Reverent, and respects the religious customs and traditions of others".

So, with that in mind; we do not require him to say the pledge or do any other things against his beliefs. But, he still needs to understand the significance overall and be willing to discuss it. Very likely though that if his family is strict, he will not last long due to too many conflicts.

[qwazse]

There is some chatter on "former JW" sites about how they are not allowed to join. Clearly, your boy's parents didn't get that memo. I think you need to talk to the parents about what they think the real boundaries are, then work with the boy. I think the requirements are worded so as to give you a little "wiggle room" with this. But I think it's important to avoid anything that seems like "trickery" to the parents.

 

What's most important IMHO is that the boy understands what the PoA is, why it is important to most Americans, why his religion opposes the recitation of the pledge, and how he can still refrain from the pledge (and, maybe the salute) yet still be a productive citizen.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, the original significance of the pledge was to sell copies of "The Youth's Companion" and American flags, and promote international socialism.

 

By the way, the pledge's author's cousin's book "Looking Backward", a vision of the coming Socialist utopia published in 1887 and set in the year 2000, is oddly entertaining, if a bit dry (since it's an author tract).

[NJCubScouter]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet, I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.

[dfscott]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet' date=' I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.[/quote']

 

Thanks, NJCS -- that's a really good idea. I'll start there (and report back for the benefit of others).

[qwazse]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet' date=' I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.[/quote']

 

Thanks, NJCS -- that's a really good idea. I'll start there (and report back for the benefit of others).

Yep, trust your pros, because they always get it right ....

[NJCubScouter]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet' date=' I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.[/quote']

 

Thanks, NJCS -- that's a really good idea. I'll start there (and report back for the benefit of others).

qwazse, I understand that the professionals aren't perfect, I just think that in fairness to the Scout and his parents, some attempt should be made to get the "official" word on what accommodations the BSA makes in situations like this. As I said, I am sure it has come up before and I see no need for the leaders of a troop to have to wonder about what to do, when there may be a solution already in place. It's worth a try, isn't it?

[walk in the woods]

I'd be interested to hear their take on the Oath and law as well. I don't know much about the JWs but always thought taking a pledge or swearing an oath of any sort was problematic.

[DigitalScout]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet' date=' I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.[/quote']

 

Thanks, NJCS -- that's a really good idea. I'll start there (and report back for the benefit of others).

Here's the problem involving the council. If the person answering the phone is a kindly, maternal person, she will probably tell you in the spirit of scouting to make whatever accommodations necessary for the boy to feel welcome. One the other hand, if a crusty overzealous patriot type answers the phone, he's going to tell you to give the kid the boot then show up at your next meeting to make sure the kid is not there.

[DigitalScout]

The BSA website says:

Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

While the promise, scout law, etc. says:

Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Scout Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.

 

It looks to me like he doesn't have to "take" the pledge, just repeat what it is. He could e.g. start out "the wording of the current US pledge of allegiance is blah blah blah" and he wouldn't be taking the pledge.

^^^^^

Best answer.

[King Ding Dong]

Wait wait wait. Before you talk to the boy or his parents and tell them the "rules" based on what a few anonymous people told you on the Internet' date=' I would call my friendly local council office and talk to one of the executives about this issue. I am SURE this is not the first time this has come up, if not in your council, then in other councils. Your question might get bumped up the chain of command somewhere, but someone has to know the "official" answer. I would do that before you tell this enthusiastic young man, or his parents, what is and is not absolutely required of him if he is to remain a Boy Scout.[/quote']

 

Thanks, NJCS -- that's a really good idea. I'll start there (and report back for the benefit of others).

See 5 doctors and you will get 5 different diagnosis. Same with Councils.

 

That why in a situation like this I would want a ruling from an executive so there is less chance for a surprise down the road.

[DigitalScout]

Well, the original significance of the pledge was to sell copies of "The Youth's Companion" and American flags, and promote international socialism.

 

By the way, the pledge's author's cousin's book "Looking Backward", a vision of the coming Socialist utopia published in 1887 and set in the year 2000, is oddly entertaining, if a bit dry (since it's an author tract).

The Pledge of Allegiance has an interesting history indeed. It was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and officially adopted in 1942. The controversial "under God" phrase was officially added in 1954 at the behest of President Eisenhower.

 

The Pledge of Allegiance was accompanied by the "Bellamy Salute" which consisted of an outstretched, straightened right arm with the palm facing the flag. If this sounds like the Nazi salute, you're right. But the Bellamy salute started in 1892; the Nazi's adopted the same salute in the 1930s. The Bellamy salute was dropped in 1942 when Congress amended the Flag Code. On the Internet you can find some interesting, if not disturbing, pics of American kids doing what appears to be the Nazi salute which is in reality the Bellamy salute.