King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I am in a pickle. I think I am the only person in the pack with BALOO and OWL. In my current Council they call it LOE (leader outdoor experience). I can't make the fall campout and can't find anything written that states that training is required, but it has always been my understanding that it is. There is a class before the campout so I hopefully I can get someone to step up. Is there a National Policy or is the policy governed at the Council level ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolaidman Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 See page 16 of the 2013 Guide to Safe Scouting upper right-hand corner: "At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use the tour and activity plan, No. 680-014." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yes baloo is required.... look at this link under Pack overnight camping. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Thanks guys, I thought so. Just to make your head explode BD..... I don't think I have any lawyers in the pack, but in case I do.....one could read that sentence as "Baloo is required to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. But we just want to camp and do not care about all that crap. It doesn't say we can't camp, we just won't properly understand the importance of....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Thanks guys, I thought so. Just to make your head explode BD..... I don't think I have any lawyers in the pack, but in case I do.....one could read that sentence as "Baloo is required to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. But we just want to camp and do not care about all that crap. It doesn't say we can't camp, we just won't properly understand the importance of....." BD you can put your head back together. I found this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-631.pdf "At least one adult giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162, and be present on campouts. " Includes that helpful period before going on to explain why. On the other hand, the Online GTSS is always supposed to be the most current and official document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Packs locally will not be issues tour permits without a baloo trained person. So what could happen if you don't have one.......nothing.... Your one of those guys that has to have it in writing. So exactly why sis you bother asking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Packs locally will not be issues tour permits without a baloo trained person. So what could happen if you don't have one.......nothing.... Your one of those guys that has to have it in writing. So exactly why sis you bother askingI am looking for the stick to get some other leaders to go to training. Our council does not require tour permits if you stay in council. Looks like we are not camping on council property this fall, but even then the old CM never had to have BALOO to get a reservation for council property. If I am going to stand up and insist that these leaders go to BALOO if they want to camp I darn well want to make sure I have the rules on my side and not be made a fool. The wishy washy BSA speak gets frustrating when two different documents talk about the same thing but use different sentences and are not explicit. Yes, I want it in writing. These are all legal rules "someone said" doesn't cut it. That's why I am asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Packs locally will not be issues tour permits without a baloo trained person. So what could happen if you don't have one.......nothing.... Your one of those guys that has to have it in writing. So exactly why sis you bother askingSo getting training because it is the right thing to do doesn't cut it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Packs locally will not be issues tour permits without a baloo trained person. So what could happen if you don't have one.......nothing.... Your one of those guys that has to have it in writing. So exactly why sis you bother askingYou know darn well it cuts it for me, I have listed all my training classes to you before. The other parents, not so much. I think there is only one other DL that has taken training beyond online. I don't have to deal with the same level of BS you do with parents, but general apathy, "I don't have time" yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I've been trying for two years now to take BALOO, ever since I found out that our pack, like yours, is short of trained folks. Our district rarely does it, and the neighboring districts only do it during the school year when we are active with pack stuff. can't run the pack if we cancel events to get trained! Regardless, other than trying to do right why does it matter? It's family camping. Jr is camping with mom and dad, not you. The pack just happens to be there too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I took baloo out of council.......Our district does not offer training.....It really is a bad district.....The near by districts didn't match up schedule wise..... It doesn't fit my schedule doesn't cut it in my book.....If it is important you will make time for it.......... Getting trained to take the Pack camping isn't important that fine. No camp out and yes the boys need to realize whose responsible. Honestly it depends on how the Pack runs the camp out..... Seen one pack where everyone is on their own for meals......Mine we cooked as a group.....Seen dens cook on their own......Seen parents run into town for chicken from walmart. So KDD unless you put your foot down now with the CS parents their attitude will follow them into the Troop..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 I've been trying for two years now to take BALOO, ever since I found out that our pack, like yours, is short of trained folks. Our district rarely does it, and the neighboring districts only do it during the school year when we are active with pack stuff. can't run the pack if we cancel events to get trained! Regardless, other than trying to do right why does it matter? It's family camping. Jr is camping with mom and dad, not you. The pack just happens to be there too..... I could take the attitude that since my family won't be there, so what? However, I am aslo IH and the ramification could be the Pack could not be covered under BSA insurance, exposing the CO to potential liability. BALOO by itself is not even an overnight or at least wasn't when I took it. OWL required the overnight. Our council only offers it during the school year as well. Have someone else run the pack one Saturday. Oh, and I wanted to add. My council doesn't offer BALOO as a stand alone course. I guess they have combined the two onto LOE (leader outdoor experience). I never understood why BALOO with no overnight allowed you take the whole pack camping, but if JUST the Webelos wanted to camp as a den OWL with overnight was required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I've been trying for two years now to take BALOO, ever since I found out that our pack, like yours, is short of trained folks. Our district rarely does it, and the neighboring districts only do it during the school year when we are active with pack stuff. can't run the pack if we cancel events to get trained! Regardless, other than trying to do right why does it matter? It's family camping. Jr is camping with mom and dad, not you. The pack just happens to be there too..... OWL is not required to take a webelo den camping..... A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CubScoutOutdoorProgramGuidelines.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I've been trying for two years now to take BALOO, ever since I found out that our pack, like yours, is short of trained folks. Our district rarely does it, and the neighboring districts only do it during the school year when we are active with pack stuff. can't run the pack if we cancel events to get trained! Regardless, other than trying to do right why does it matter? It's family camping. Jr is camping with mom and dad, not you. The pack just happens to be there too..... I think the way the rules and required training currently are completely ridiculous....... I gotta live within the guidelines too...... So why do BSA guidelines and rules need to be a complete maze and open up discussions like this???? Require the training or not don't........Don't leave the decision up to the volunteers most will take the easy way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Lewis and Clark council is offering Baloo training September 21st...... That is pretty close to your location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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